Whooper e-mail log

There was also contact with Terry McEneaney but I have no record of our conversations. I recall that we discussed that because of the "Hagerman effect" the provenance of the swan is truly what is in question. What provenance criteria were applied to the tufted duck? As the (incomplete) e-mail log below shows there where some people who had questions regarding the identification. Both Killian Mullarney and Terry McEneaney agreed that the bird was a Whooper Swan.

___________________________________________________________________________

Hey Everyone,
This afternoon 1-4-06 at about 1:30 pm I had a first winter Glaucous
Gull on the eastern-most pond of Clear Lake at Clear Lakes Country
Club down in the Snake River Canyon north of Buhl. The Gull was about
15-20 yards in front of me in full sun. Massive Size! Really a
striking bird.

Kent did in fact contact Terry from Yellowstone via e-mail and Phone.
they exchanged Pictures and Terry did concur that our bird was a
Whooper Swan, probobly a first winter bird.

Zeke Watkins
Kimberly, ID, 731-1471

__________________________________________________________________________

Cliff

_____________________________________________________________________________

Kent,

_______________________________________________________________________I didn't hear the swan vocalize when I saw it.

I think that Kent contacted Terry at Yellowstone. Perhaps Kent or Zeke

will post about this.

The swan was not present on the 28th of Dec. and I believe that Larry

Barnes looked for it either on the 26th or 27th and he did not find it.

I made an extensive search of the river and ponds in the area on the

28th. Dave and Renea Spaulding were with me.

Kathleen

Bellevue, ID

_______________________________________________________________________

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 9:26 AM

Subject: Re: Whooper Swan ID question

| Hi Cliff,

|

| These are nice photos, the first & third in particular. It

is especially nice to have Trumpeters in the same picture for comparison of structure.

| I'm copying Noah Strycker on this since he spent some time

on a troublesome yellow-billed swan in Klamath County, Oregon,

and may be able to help you further. Noah, the pictures Cliff sent

are at

| in case you want to take a look before reading my thoughts

below. ..

|

| I think this one is a Bewick's (Tundra) Swan rather than a

Whooper Swan. Starting with the structure which I feel is key (a Whooper should look very much like a Trumpeter if you black out the yellow on the bill), the neck of this bird is more short and slender as you note -- much less "muscular" in appearance than a Trumpeter or Whooper and more like a Tundra.

|In terms of posture, the bird also holds its neck more

upright in a typical Tundra pose. The back is also more sharply rounded

than on the nearby Trumpeters. The net effect is the gooselike posture

typical of Tundra.

| The forehead is domed farther forward and the bill profile

is more dished out, lacking the angular, "Canvasback" appearance

of a Trumpeter/Whooper.

| In terms of bare parts, the facial skin rises almost

straight up from the gape, then curves sharply back to the eye a a thin

bridge of skin, rather than extending more straight back to a point at the eye, as one can see on the Trumpeters and which should also be seen on a Whooper.

| The yellow on the bill does not extend as far forward as

on typical Whooper; rather the extent is typical of Bewick's.

Bewick's, and to a lesser degree, Whooper are said to show some variation in the extent of yellow so I would not use this as a diagnostic, but it lines up with the other evidence pointing to Bewick's

| In terms of age, I am not sure if is a young bird coming

into adult plumage, or a mud-stained adult. The neck is more pale

than I would expect for a juvenile Trumpeter or Whooper in November,

but could match a 2nd winter Bewick's/Tundra. The bill colors appear to be fully developed, rather than showing flesh-colored tones as on

juveniles.|

| The feathering on the forehead at the top of the bill does

appear to extend farther than I would expect for typical Tundra, but

the photos are not very conclusive on this point. Given the other,

more well-defined characteristics which all point to

Tundra/Bewick's, I would not try to take this single, apparent trait as evidence for hybrid parentage (Trumpeter/Bewick's or Whooper/Whistling?) despite the bird's association with Trumpeters and its being a juvenile.

| This does appears to be on the large end of the size range

for Bewick's. The body of this bird while swimming does appear at least

10% shorter than the nearby Trumpeters (assuming these photos were

taken at long enough range with a zoom lens or scope that the effect of

this bird being behind the Trumpeters is negligible). Combined with

the shorter neck it would be perhaps 15% shorter if it were stretched

out in flight.

| So, say 135 cm if these are 160 cm Trumpeters. That is

still good-sized for a Bewick's (which average a bit smaller than the

Whistling subspecies of Tundra), but within the Bewick's size range

of 115-140 cm according to Beaman & Madge's /Handbook to Bird

Identification for Europe and the Western Palearctic/. It would be a bit too small for a Whoopers which range from 140-165 cm ... but of course this depends on the size of the Trumpeters used for reference.

| Anyway, to sum up, my best judgement is that this is a 2nd

Winter Bewick's (Tundra Swan), probably a young male given his

apparent size & general look.

| A very exciting bird to have in Idaho! It's a pity that a

rare suspecies will not count as much as a rare species in terms of

ABA-style listing, but still, it's a heck of a bird.

|

| Cheers,

| Joel

|

|

| Cliff and Lisa Weisse wrote:

|

| > Joel,

| >

| > I found your post RE a Whooper Swan in Oregon last year

and wondered if you'd mind taking a look at some photos of a sub-adult

bird seen in Idaho last month and identified as a Whooper. It

appears smaller than Trumpeters and has a shorter and thinner neck. The pattern of feathering at the base of the bill doesn't look quite

right to me. I have no field experience with Whooper Swan and limited

reference material. If it's not asking too much I'd like to hear

your opinion. Thanks in advance if you can help.

If I get more photos I'll let you know.  This individual looks even thicker necked than most I've seen photos of.

<<<PHOTOS BELOW FROM EUROPE>>>

Cliff

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 4:31 PM

Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Whooper Swan ID

Hi Cliff,

I know I have filmed juv Whooper's on a number of occasions, but it may take me a little time to locate the particular sections of tape, as I seem not to have saved sample grabs on my computer. I did see one reasonably close juvenile Whooper today, so I hope these will suffice for the moment. Incidentally, the neck length/thickness on these birds varies considerably according to the bird's mood or activity, generally looking thicker and shorter when the bird is very relaxed, as in the bird I saw today

I hope I'll be able to send you more examples in the coming days.

With best wishes,

Killian

_____________________________________________________________________________

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 9:25 PM

Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Whooper Swan ID

Hi Cliff,

To me, this looks fine for a Whooper, and it certainly does not look right for a Bewick's. I have opportunities to see both species together here at this time of year, and I'm sure I could send you images of typical  juvs, if you think they might help?

All the best,

Killian Mullarney

Ireland

_______________________________________________________________________

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 3:01 PM

Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Whooper Swan ID

I think you are correct, your bird seems to be a Bewick's Swan.  I attach a head shot of an adult Whooper, taken in Iceland in August.  You will notice the extent of the yellow fully under the nostril--a vital mark for Whooper.  The shape of the feathered cheek also varies from your bird.  Finally, a Whooper I had with Tundras at Nome was much larger than they were, with a much thicker neck.  Your bird seems slight and small.  Not good for Whooper at all.

Brad Schram

Arroyo Grande, CA

_____________________________________________________________________________

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 11:34 PM

Subject: RE: [BIRDWG01] Whooper Swan ID

Hi

 The shape of the yellow on the bill (pointy) is right for Whooper

The neck shape also seems right, but that can of course change with posture

Bob

A bird ID'd as a 2nd year (I think) Whooper Swan was photographed near Hagerman, Idaho on Dec 22nd, 2005.  The extent of yellow on the bill seems like it's between Bewick's and Whooper, the neck seems short and thin, and the pattern of feathering at the edge of the bill seems more consistent with Tundra to me.  Having no field experience with Whooper and limited references available I'd appreciate opinions from those familiar with Whooper Swans.  Thanks in advance for any assistance.

Kent,

I did learn that Whooper's closest relative is Tundra Swan.  However from what I've read so far structure should be more like Trumpeter.  Regarding size I read about a capture project that included both Whoopers and Trumpeters in which the largest individuals were male Whoopers and the smallest were female Whoopers so size can apparently vary greatly.  In my own experience I've seen a couple "runt" Trumpeters that were smaller than Tundras but all field marks fit Trumpeter. 

I don't know much about those that responded except that one is from Ireland, from Killian Mullarney, a birder that has experience with Whoopers.  He sent some photos and is trying to locate more.  I've written to Joel Geier as well.  I read a response he wrote for a possible Whooper in Oregon last year and he apparently has experience with both species.  I'll post all the replies on IBLE when I'm sure I'm not going to get any more but I'll forward what I have to you so you don't have to wait.

For the record what I'm most bothered by at this point is that the yellow patch doesn't reach past the basal end of the nostril and the neck appears short and thin.  All of the Whooper photos and video I've seen show birds with longer and, especially, thicker necks.  What I really want to see is a photo of a Whooper from it's normal range with such a thin neck.  I'd also like to know what the minimal extent of yellow is for Whooper.  This individual seems intermediate between maximum extent for Bewick's and minimum for Whooper.  If you have references to photos that put these characters within range for Whooper I'd love to see them. 

I don't know whether hybrids have been documented but I've seen discussion of possible hybridization between Whooper and Bewick's.  Then there's the issue of provenance, as you mentioned in an earlier post.  Personally I think there's every reason to believe that Whoopers occur as vagrants but how do you prove that?  There are so many waterfowl breeders around the Snake River plain that anything's possible.  We have a good friend in Boise who's father raised ducks and swans when she was growing up.  When we discuss how to rule out an escapee she just laughs and says you'll never know.  There are plenty of breeders that don't band their stock and no one has any idea what's being produced.  They're not going to tell you that they had an illegal/undocumented such and such because you want to prove a record to the committee.  That said I thin there are points that indicate vagrancy in this case, especially if it's never seen again.  If it hangs around Hagerman for the next few years it's not a good sign.  I think I saw a report of a possible Whooper on the west coast a few days before you found this bird.  I haven't been able to find the report but I'll keep looking.  Also the day I was at Hagerman there was a juvenile I believe was a Bewick's.  It had a big diffuse white patch on the bill between the eyes and nares, similar to what Sibley draws for Bewick's.  It also had gray legs, not black.  Otherwise it was not noticeably different from the other two Tundras in the area, although this individual was not associating with these birds.  The two Tundras flew in together and stayed separate on the water until all the swans left late in the day.  (If you have a reference that covers Bewick's maybe you can save me some leg work and check on leg color of Bewick's for me?  Thanks in advance.)  Any way I think the appearance of other vagrants of Asian origin at the same time is a strong indicator in favor of natural origin for your bird. 

I'll forward responses separately.

Cliff__________________________________________________________________________

I’m curious to know if anybody who has seen this bird, had any opportunity to hear it vocalize.  According to the stuff I’ve read there should be a distinct difference in the sound of Whooper vs Tundra or Trumpeter.

Dave Lawrence

Nampa,  ID   83651

_________________________________________________________

In addition to my previous post on IBLE I posted a request for opinions on the ID of the Whooper Swan on ID Frontiers.  So far I've received only four responses, two for Whooper and two for Bewick's race Tundra Swan.  Not definitive by any means.  I'm going to continue researching and I'll post again if I learn anything further.  In the mean time if anyone sees the bird again I'd appreciate hearing about it.  Also if anyone has a photo(s) that shows the detail of the base of the bill that would be helpful  Thanks in advance.

Cliff

Hello all,

Not having seen the photo's of the bird in question, I can not comment on the birds ID. I have however a close up picture of a Whooper Swan's head on my website if that will be of any help. Just click on Photo Album.

Hope everyone is having a happy Christmas holiday.

All the best,

Eddie Chapman, Voss. Norway.

Photo Album: Close up of Whooper Swans head

_______________________________________________________________________

I've been reviewing the photos of the Whooper Swan from Hagerman.  I have no field experience with Whoopers but a few things strike me as being questionable.  The bird appears proportionately short and thin necked, more consistent with Tundra Swan than Trumpeter or Whooper.  The eye seems like it's set totally separate from the bill and doesn't connect up with the unfeathered lores at the base of the bill, more consistent with Tundra.  The feathering at the base of the bill doesn't extend very for forward, rather it's more vertical.  Viewed from the side the feathering extends further forward on Trumpeter and Whooper than it does on Tundra.  The extent of the yellow patch looks like it's between "Bewick's" Tundra and Whooper Swans.  The forward most point of yellow extends to the end of the nostril closest to the tip, which is more than half the length of the bill, on the Whoopers I've found photos of.  On the Hagerman bird the yellow just makes it to the end of the nostril closest to the base of the bill, which is less than half the length of the bill.  I don't know enough about Whoopers to say for sure but I'm not comfortable with the ID of Whooper so I'm going to ask for opinions on the Frontiers of ID listserv.  I'll post any replies I receive.

I was in the hagerman area from 12:30-5:00 pm today. I found the group of swans fairly easily, but never did see a Whooper. I thought I may have had it, but after the light got better could tell it was not the bird. If anybody does see it please let us know.

I did have a White-throated Sparrow at the state fish hatchery. I also

discovered a fairly fresh road-killed Screech Owl in the area.

Darren Clark

Rexburg, ID

The juv. whooper swan was still present today, 12/22/05, downstream of

Owlsely bridge. Neither leg is banded, at least on the upper part of the legs. I saw it raise its wings once and observed no marking or

abnormalities of any type. A hint for those going for the first time- to separate this from the juv trumpeters look for the large whitish patch at the base of the upper bill. A close view will reveal a tinge of yellow near the face. Don't be misled by the pinkish color on the trumpeters. The NGS bird guide shows a large pinkish patch for the whooper, but our bird must be older; no trace of pink. Our guy also has a white tail, white patches on the back, and white flanks that the young trumpeters don't have.

Also be patient. The bird was not present when several birders first

arrived about 10 am. But after searching up and down the river, it was finally found about 11 am right back where it has been seen all along.

Thanks to Zeke and Kent for finding this guy and letting us know.

Bob Davis

Idaho Falls

PS, For the record a swamp sparrow was also found (not by me) near the

Hagerman Fish hatchery.

_______________________________________________________________________From Kathleen Cameron

___________________________________________________________

(From Steve Bouffard)

After looking at this photo I feel better about calling your bird a whooper. You can see from Chapman's photo that a whooper head is rounder than a trumpeter and the bill is shorter and not as straight as that of a trumpeter. The head shape in this photo looks a lot like your bird. The eye is also distinct from the facial skin on this bird as it is in your swan. These were the 2 characters that had me the most skeptical. Now if we could only find it again and hear it vocalize. I'm heading out in about a half hour - should get me to Hagerman before dark.

____________________________________________________________________

(From Steve Bouffard)

Terry might be a good place to start, because he knows some of the big boys and might be more up on the whooper literature. He certainly knows trumpeters & tundras in and out. Plus he is teaching waterfowl ID for ABA.

However, the whooper swan he found was an adult, which would be a much easier call. The trouble with cygnets is that they might not have their full body size or full beak length yet and that their plumage and beak colors are changing over the winter. Other people who might be good to send photos to are people who lead field trips to Asia and aviculturists who raise whoopers. Unfortunately I do not know anyone in these categories. Terry probably does.

I am on my way to Boise again today, so if it is not dark when I get to Hagerman I will check again this afternoon. Was the swan seen downstream from the diversion dam? That;s the only place I looked. Maybe I need to expand my search? Carbon copy any message from now through next Monday to Loreli's email (lbouffard@surfbest.com). I'll check the mail there every day or so.

Thanks for the photos.

_______________________________________________________________________

This swan was not there on 23 & 27 Dec. The swan Darren & I saw with a grayish saddle patch was, I am quite sure, a tundra. But it was not this bird. It was also much smaller, definitely tundra size.

Unfortunately I don't have any real fine description of cygnet whooper swans to go by. All I can do is base my opinion on tundra/trumpeter characteristics, assuming that whoopers & trumpeters are very close in size & shape. Their voices are nearly identical. If anyone heard any vocalization it would rule out tundra/Bewicks versus trumpeter/whooper.

The head shape is a little rounded and the bill seems a little short for trumpeter. The body length looks trumpeter. The eye seems distinct from the facial skin - a tundra characteristic. The line of facial skin from the gape to the eye is somewhat curved. This line is nearly straight in a trumpeter. In a tundra it goes up then turns toward the eye, making a distinct angle. This bird seems in between. The bill coloration pattern definitely says whooper. It definitely is a cygnet. The plumage seems to be a little lighter than the trumpeters in the same pictures. Tundra swan cygnets are generally lighter in color than trumpeter cygnets. The line of the facial skin at the top of the culmen in the face-on photos appears to be a U shape, rather than a V shape. U shaped is a trumpeter charachteristic. Because I don't have any finer description of cygnet whoopers, and in the absence of any other info, I don't have any reason to disagree with your call. However there are some things about this bird that suggest tundra swan that make me cautious. Have these photos been sent to some one who might be familiar with cygnet Bewicks & whoopers?

(See attached file: swanid.doc)

**************************************************

Steve Bouffard

Minidoka National Wildlife Refuge

961 E. Minidoka Dam Rd

Rupert, ID 83350

(208) 436-3589

fax (208) 436-1570

steve_bouffard@fws.gov

Kent, (12/29)

Dave, Renea, and I looked for the swan for several hours yesterday afternoon and we did not find it. We looked every where from Hagerman to the place where we parked to go looking for Screech Owls. It may still be around but we sure did not find it. There are more Tundra present now that last week.

Other wise nothing very interesting to report except that it would be nice to go birding when it is not raining!

Kathleen

From Kathleen Cameron on 12/23

Kent, Bob Davis was shooting some video footage. He wasn't shooting with as large a camera as mine but he may have gotten something that will help in the research on this bird. He posted on IBLE so his email will be there.

I will still try at some point to get some nice clear footage for the video section of Idahobirds.net. I have a few clips on there now in the gallery or images section I can't remember for sure what it is called on their site.

Does the organization that you are working with have a web site?

Good tidings back to you!

Kathleen

Marv

The juvenile whooper swan was in the same location as reported on Saturday this morning Wednesday December 21. Gary Stitzinger and I found the swan between the Owlsley Bridge and the Bell Rapids diversion at 10:30 am. There were Mute and Trumpeter Swans in the area as well. The Whooper seemed to be by itself; not associating with the other swans. I could only see the right leg from my vantage point but I did not see any leg bands.

Good birding,

Brian

Brian Sturges

450 River Trail

Hailey,Idaho 83333

From: IdLambrech@aol.com [mailto:IdLambrech@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 10:23 PM
To: delwiche@srv.net; kit619@ida.net
Subject: Whooping Swan Help

I stopped yesterday at Hagerman to look for the swan. There were mutes, tundras, and trumpeters. Now for your master birder help.

The National Geographic pg 66 shows the juvenile whooper as having a yellow with black tip bill and there was one juvenile that had the bill - good news.

The Audubon Master Guide to Birding description and picture shows a "heavy pinkish bill with dark-tip." The description and picture for tundra is "pinkish, black-tipped bill." The description and picture for trumpeter is "pinkish, black-tipped bill." - bad news.

Do you have any guidance?

I looked on the Internet but couldn't find another reference for the yellow-bill shown in National Geographic. Patuxent Wildlife Research Center said there was disagreement and would post later. The others went with the pink-black tip.

Otherwise the birding was excellent for this time of years.

Am. Robins

C. Waxwings

Great Blue Heron

Snowy Egret

DC Cormorants

Am White Pelican

Mallard

Am Wigeon

Gadwall

L Scaup

Both Goldeneyes

Ring-nNeck

Red Head

Am Coot

Bufflehead 

Northern Shoveler

 Also stopped at Boise to look for the Cackling goose. Thousands of Canadians but no Cackling. There were a few immature Snow Goose.

Hi Kent,

Well, despite the fuzziness of your photos, it sure looks like a Whooper, I agree. The size and head shape are right, except for the lack of a point on the back of the crown which my book says is diagnostic. It is a bit light in color on the body and neck, compared with the illustrations in Knightley, Madge and Nurney's Birds of Britain and N-W Europe. The book does say that the young get lighter in color as the winter progresses

though. The illustration in Lars Jonsson's Birds of Europe also shows

young Whoopers as darker tannish than your photos. The Whooper breeds further east in Siberia than Bewick's race, and your bird is much too large for the latter.

Butt, I am still bothered by all the strange waterfowl that show up in your area. Admittedly the Magic Valley is a great place to spend the winter for an aquatic bird, yet I'm suspicious that someone down there is breeding exotic critters. Do breeders have to obtain a permit from F&G? There must be some kind of registration required. How about a survey of the vets in yoiur area?

Nice job of documenting this one though. Thanks.

And Happy Solstice to you and yours.

Chuck

(18Dec05)_____________________________________________________________

Dear Ible,

As there should be, some debate as to the provenance of the Whooper

Swan will occur. Please check out Terry McEneaney's article discussing

the Yellowstone Whooper in a recent American Field Notes (it can be

accessed on-line: google whooper swan north american records). The

Hagerman area attracts strange waterfowl including these birds within

the last 10 years:

Bar-headed Geese

Tufted Duck

Ruddy Shelduck

Red-crested Pochard

Mandarin Duck

Black Swan

Mute Swan

This bird being a juv makes the escapee scenario less likely - but it will be good to find out if any Whooper Swan breeders have lost young birds. According to Mullarney this bird is of the eastern group, I don't know if like Mute Swans, captive Whoopers tend to be of the Western European variety.

Zeke and I had a good puzzle trying to figure out this bird, as the juv. plumage is not shown in standard North American field guides. Stephanie Martin and the staff of the Hagerman Fossilbeds National Monument provided critical internet access so we could examine photos and notify IBLE, before we took other Hagerman CBC participants out to see this bird.

The Jarbidge CBC is today, so I won't be available to help if you decide to chase this bird. Yesterday a thick river fog was present most of the morning, it will make refinding this bird more difficult if present today. The safest place to park is at the dam downstream of Owsley bridge and scope upstream.

Directions: from Hagerman travel toward BUhl on US 30. Immediately after crossing the Snake River, turn right (downstream) on the River rd. and drive about two miles: past the one-lane Owsley Bridge and go to the low dam and start scoping.

Good Luck,

kent

After consulting Mullarney's Bird's of Europe, and Kent's digital photos as well as photos on the internet, we have come to the conclusion that there is a Whooper Swan in Hagerman!!!!

We Found the bird downriver from the Owsley Bridge above the dam with a group of 10 Trumpeter swan, 8 tundra swans and 6 mute swans. Often there was all 4 species of swans in the scope at once. We found the Whooper at about 2:00 pm and took the ruprechts to it at

about 4:30 at dusk we could not locate the birds when we took a second group of Hagerman CBC people.

We will be uploading Photos into a Whooper Folder imediatley after posting this. If anyone has any questions or needs help locating the bird please let us know.

Zeke and Kent

Zeke's Cell: 731-1471

Kent's Cell: 420-4914 Kent is CBC'ing Jarbidge tomorrow 12-18-05 and will be hard to contact.

______________________________________________________________(17 –Dec-05)

Kent Fothergill and I have a possible Whooper swan just downriver from
the owsley bridge over the snake river near Hagerman, Kent got some
Photos and we will post them and more info later tonight or tommorrow
am.

Zeke Watkins
731-1471